Started logging meeting in #ubuntu-meeting
[02:47:27] <dholbach> [LINK] Agenda:
[02:47:42] <dholbach> [TOPIC] Charlie Smotherman's MOTU application
[02:47:52] <dholbach> hey porthose... how are you doing? what time is it over there?
[02:48:20] <porthose> a little tired but other wise ok 0248hrs :)
[02:48:33] <dholbach> wow... that's dedication
[02:48:39] * dholbach has no more questions ;-)
[02:48:40] <porthose> :)
[02:49:19] <dholbach> porthose: so what are your plans once you're MOTU, anything specific for lucid and lucid+1?
[02:49:49] <nixternal> that would have been my only question for porthose seeing as we have questioned him who knows how many times in the past already :)
[02:50:05] <porthose> The major thing I have planned is to get more involved in the mentoring program
[02:50:30] <porthose> as a mentor that is :)
[02:50:49] <dholbach> porthose: we had a couple of discussions about that before... how do you think people best spend their time as a mentor?
[02:51:06] <nixternal> we have quorum now dholbach
[02:51:24] <persia> I have a new question :) porthose: You say that the only thing you dislike is Ubuntu developers who do not submit their patches to Debian. What sort of strategies might we employ to reduce the effort required to determine if a given patch is appropriate for Debian, or do you think we should expect the Debian Developers to make the decisions?
[02:52:19] <porthose> dholbach, I would say insuring that prospective developers have a good knowledge of the basic processes
[02:52:27] * nixternal remembers this discussion previously
[02:53:34] <porthose> persia, to answer your question is to make sure that while mentoring prospective developers patches that should be sent upstream are sent upstream
[02:53:36] <nixternal> now I have a question to follow up on persia just to make sure I am not mixing this up, but didn't you list that same problem when you did universe-contributor, and your numerous per package rights applications?
[02:53:55] <porthose> nixternal, yes
[02:54:04] <dholbach> porthose: and what kind of activities do you suggest? there's already a lot of patch review and sponsoring going on, what else should a mentor do (that the general developer community can't)?
[02:54:12] <nixternal> ok, thought so, as I asked a similar question to persia's before
[02:54:20] <nixternal> see persia, my brain isn't that bad afterall :p
[02:54:23] <persia> nixternal: very similar :)
[02:54:41] <nixternal> and i have one closed
[02:56:18] <porthose> mentors IMHO develop a personal one on one relationship with the mentee, thus creating trust
[02:57:20] <persia> porthose: Where I'm curious is about the decision process for determining if a given patch belongs in Debian. Clearly you're (still) not happy with the nature of the decisions taken in general, and so I wonder what we can do to make you happy with the decisions.
[02:57:58] <porthose> this trust can be utilized to discuss the weaknesses of the mentee and thus the mentor is able to concentrate on improving these areas
[02:59:58] <dholbach> porthose: I was just interested to see how you think our general approach of teaching (docs, sessions, videos, help on irc and mailing lists, patch review, etc.) fits in with the more personal mentoring
[03:00:51] <dholbach> ok, but my question is answered :)
[03:00:57] <dholbach> persia, nixternal, soren: more questions?
[03:01:04] <nixternal> none here
[03:01:11] <soren> No, I think porthose has been grilled plenty.
[03:01:19] * persia still kinda wants an answer
[03:01:20] <soren> Today and in the past :)
[03:03:19] <porthose> persia, I am a happy with the decision process for determining if patches go upstream, it's just that not all people do it. to include myself, some time it is just a forgotten step in a persons work flow :)
[03:03:54] <persia> porthose: So you feel that the reason patches don't go to Debian is because people don't bother, rather than because they can't decide?
[03:04:27] <persia> Is there anything we could do to reduce the effort (grab the Debian package, build in a Debian environment, test in a Debian environment) that might make people do it more?
[03:06:02] <porthose> persia, to me it just comes natural to test in a debian and ubuntu chroot, because I do maintain packages in debian, an so that is how I would also mentor
[03:06:46] <porthose> I reall don't think it is because people don't bother, I think they just forget
[03:07:42] <dholbach> geser: questions? :)
[03:07:47] <persia> OK.
[03:08:04] * geser has no questions
[03:08:20] <dholbach> [VOTE] Shall Charlie Smotherman become a MOTU?
[03:08:23] <nixternal> +1
[03:08:27] <dholbach> +1
[03:08:45] <persia> +1
[03:08:55] <dholbach> soren, geser?
[03:08:56] <soren> +1
[03:09:02] <geser> +1
[03:09:06] <dholbach> [endvote]
[03:09:10] <dholbach> congratulations porthose!
[03:09:14] <nixternal> congrats porthose !
[03:09:18] <persia> Congratulations porthose
[03:09:22] <porthose> Thank You MC :)
[03:09:24] <dholbach> randomaction: still there? :)
[03:09:26] <persia> Welcome tothe team :)
[03:09:30] <randomaction> yep
[03:09:45] <dholbach> [TOPIC] Ilya Barygin's MOTU Application
[03:09:47] * porthose dances around the room and high fives his dog :)
[03:09:49] <dholbach>
[03:09:57] <dholbach> randomaction: how are you doing today? :)
[03:10:04] <randomaction> fine, thank you
[03:11:10] <persia> randomaction: So, you say you need better changelogs. Could you describe a perfect changelog entry?
[03:12:29] <randomaction> sure, explain what you did, which files were changed, what bugs you close, possibly reference other things of interest
[03:13:00] <randomaction> e.g. "this should be dropped after [some thing] happens"
[03:13:53] <dholbach> randomaction: your work seems to be quite diverse... how do you usually decide what you work on?
[03:14:27] <randomaction> presently I mostly work on merges
[03:14:50] <randomaction> I have a list of outstanding merges sorted by last-changed-in-Ubuntu date
[03:15:23] <randomaction> so I request merges/syncs for packages that were touched long ago and were probably forgotten
[03:15:24] <dholbach> ok, I just had a look at your application again and you mentioned other QA activity too, like ftbfs fixes, etc
[03:15:43] <randomaction> yes, I plan to switch focus there after FF
[03:15:52] <dholbach> randomaction: how do you think we can fix the problem with the inclusion o fnew packages?
[03:15:59] <dholbach> ... of new packages
[03:16:47] <randomaction> this is hard - first you need to understand whether Ubuntu is all-inclusive or not
[03:17:05] <persia> randomaction: Do you believe it to be all-inclusive or not?
[03:17:33] <dholbach> and what does all-inclusive mean in this case? :)
[03:17:45] <randomaction> many packages are proposed by their authors, so it's hard to decide whether it's gonna be used by many people
[03:19:00] <randomaction> it's "people should not need to go anywhere else except official repos" vs "we should only include software that adds value / needed by many / etc"
[03:19:51] <randomaction> as things stand not, relatively few packages go through REVU, so as it happens only packages with sufficient interest are included
[03:20:04] <persia> randomaction: Do you have a preference for how Ubuntu should be?
[03:20:08] <randomaction> s/not/now/
[03:20:45] <randomaction> I think that there should be at least some selectiveness
[03:21:06] <persia> What sort of criteria should apply?
[03:21:18] <randomaction> (and we have it now, at the cost of hundreds unreviewed packages)
[03:22:36] <randomaction> probably something similar to Debian, can't remember what exactly they are, but they say something like "if you have a random piece of free software, don't expect it to be included automatically"
[03:23:20] <persia> Well, Debian expects someone to take responsibility for maintaining it as one of the criteria. How might we handle a similar thing in the absence of defined maintainers?
[03:24:03] <randomaction> that said, if some software catches interest of, say, two Ubuntu devs, I think it's going to be included
[03:24:19] <randomaction> Ubuntu's packages not in Debian need maintenance
[03:24:49] <randomaction> so effectively the one who uploaded a package should take care of it
[03:25:08] <dholbach> you mean whoever packaged it, right?
[03:25:11] <randomaction> even if not listed as an official maintainer
[03:25:18] <persia> Or whoever uploaded it?
[03:25:48] <randomaction> yes, whoever packaged, as getting sponsorship is quite easy (yay for the empty queue btw!)
[03:26:04] <dholbach> ok :)
[03:26:29] <persia> randomaction: How do you feel about the use of new packaging as a way to learn packaging?
[03:26:41] <persia> (this is one argument for lots of REVU that has been used in the past)
[03:27:28] <randomaction> the more problematic the package, the more you will learn :)
[03:27:45] <randomaction> if rules.tiny works ok, you won't learn much I guess
[03:28:25] <randomaction> experience is gained by seeing different situations and understanding what happens where
[03:30:04] <dholbach> geser, soren, nixternal: more questions?
[03:30:09] <nixternal> none here
[03:30:14] <geser> none here
[03:30:17] * dholbach neither
[03:30:27] <dholbach> persia: you're done?
[03:30:59] <persia> Well, I could probe at this for a while, but I don't need the discussion to make a decision.
[03:31:16] <dholbach> ok :)
[03:31:22] <dholbach> soren?
[03:33:58] <dholbach> ok.. I take that as a yes :)
[03:34:15] <dholbach> [VOTE] Shall Ilya Barygin become MOTU?
[03:34:20] <nixternal> +1
[03:34:21] <dholbach> +1
[03:34:41] <geser> +1
[03:34:43] <persia> +1
[03:35:00] * persia pokes soren with a sharper stick
[03:35:39] * soren rushes back in
[03:35:43] <soren> +1
[03:35:51] <soren> Sorry, guys.
[03:35:57] <dholbach> [endvote]
[03:35:58] <nixternal> congrats randomaction
[03:36:03] <dholbach> congratulations randomaction!
[03:36:04] <persia> Welcome randomaction
[03:36:12] <randomaction> thank you
[03:36:13] <soren> It's like these meetings seem like an invite to random people to come and knock on my door.
[03:36:20] <nixternal> hehe
[03:36:21] <dholbach> hehe
[03:36:28] <nixternal> alrighty, off to bed for me
[03:36:30] <nixternal> g'nite all!
[03:36:34] <dholbach> night nixternal
[03:36:37] <dholbach> [TOPIC] Any other business?
[03:37:23] <dholbach> Who's going to do the honours?
[03:37:27] <persia> As long as we're quorate in a formal meeting, I may as well confirm that we're happy to accept recommendations from the DMB on Contributing Developers until the Community Council completes the action from their recent decision.
[03:39:10] <dholbach> who's going to process the applications and everything?
[03:39:21] <dholbach> geser, soren, persia, nixternal, jpds, nhandler: ^? :-)
[03:39:51] <persia> I can do them in about 22 hours, but if someone can get to them faster, that would be better.
[03:41:20] * dholbach has a bunch of other stuff to do today, but as nobody seems to volunteer I'll try to squeeze it in
[03:41:27] <dholbach> anything else?
[03:41:43] <persia> dholbach: Then if you miss, I'll get it early your tomorrow :)
[03:41:53] <dholbach> alrightie
[03:41:56] <dholbach> thanks everybody!
[03:42:03] <dholbach> adjourned
[03:42:06] <dholbach> #endmeeting
Meeting ended.