Started logging meeting in #ubuntu-meeting
[16:01:53] <pleia2> we can defer the first item to UDS, since we will have a session there to review
[16:02:02] <Technoviking> [TOPIC] Community Council Meeting 3-May-2001 Chair: Technoviking
[16:02:07] <Technoviking> ok
[16:02:41] <Technoviking> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
[16:03:02] <Technoviking> is nathan-bahn here?
[16:04:26] <Technoviking> we will give him a few minutes.
[16:05:52] <Technoviking> anything for the CC while we wait for nathan?
[16:06:22] <popey> hi mdke
[16:06:47] <mdke> heya, sorry I'm late
[16:08:41] <Technoviking> no problem
[16:09:32] <Technoviking> ok looks like nathan will not be here.
[16:09:56] <pleia2> I think that's all we really had
[16:10:32] <Technoviking> I feel discussed the Sounder ad-nasuem last time, and I feel the wider Ubuntu community is very ok with what happened
[16:10:57] <Technoviking> anything else?
[16:11:12] <mdke> for what it's worth, I thoroughly agree on that subject - I wasn't at the last meeting but have followed the issue
[16:11:15] <popey> well, I'd expected more people to turn up to be honest
[16:11:31] <popey> I was anticipating more people to come to this meeting and voice their concern/objections
[16:12:08] <Technoviking> We were willing to discuss it agin, so I think all time zone have been covered well
[16:12:17] * ogra_ is surprised as well, given the noise on ubuntu-users this causes recently
[16:13:30] <amedee> (test... is my message on channel? It's been a while since I used irssi)
[16:13:43] <amedee> sorry for the test. popey invited me
[16:13:49] <ogra_> amedee, it is
[16:13:55] <amedee> I came here for the sounder topic
[16:14:03] <popey> you're welcome to speak freely amedee
[16:14:19] <amedee> thank you, popey
[16:15:25] <amedee> first I would like to say that I agree with a lot of what was said in the last meeting (I read the log): sounder was getting out of control
[16:17:53] <amedee> It's just that the solution to the problem seemed a bit drastic. Suppose I read an article in my local newspaper about some government agency that is switching all of their computers to Ubuntu, where can I make some sound about that? In the current situation it's not allowed on ubuntu-users, because it's not technical.
[16:18:18] <popey> We have marketing mailing lists.
[16:18:54] <popey> There's actually mailing lists, forums, irc channels and other communication mediums for pretty much any topic you want to discuss that would have been discussed on sounder...
[16:19:01] <amedee> do you? That's good to know. I may have looked over them, the page with all the mailing lists is really long
[16:19:03] <mdke> that would also be suited to the UWN
[16:19:06] <popey> ... except religion, politics and history.
[16:19:07] <pleia2> and ubuntu-news-team for sending articles to be included in ubuntu weekly news
[16:19:20] <pleia2> or on ubuntu-news.org
[16:19:59] <amedee> popey: why wasn't moderation considered? For example you moderated here: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2011-April/243224.html
[16:20:17] <popey> It was used on a few occasions.
[16:21:00] <popey> but it got to the point where there were only a few people talking, and those few people repeatedly abused the 'rules'
[16:21:30] <amedee> I wouldn't mind if it had been used a bit more. You know who I'm talking about. It was always the same people that brought up religion etc
[16:21:47] <popey> Sure, and to some degree I agree with you.
[16:21:58] <popey> But it would have ended up being a ghost-town
[16:22:09] <popey> making it somewhat pointless
[16:22:14] <envygeeks> popey: why would they not have just been banned from the list?
[16:22:15] <ogra_> well, it was a good garbage can for ubuntu-users ...
[16:22:22] <amedee> perhaps, perhaps not. We'll never know.
[16:22:28] <popey> anyway, that wasnt the actual reason I called for it to be shut down
[16:22:30] <ogra_> and its noticeable missing as that function now
[16:22:48] <mdke> for me, and I may take a more extreme view than some other CC members (I don't know), I'm really not concerned that the concept of the list serves a justifiable purpose for the community, quite apart from the issue of whether posts were on-topic there or not
[16:22:52] <popey> the reason I called for it to be shutdown was because it didnt fulfil its original function, it wasnt needed anymore
[16:23:00] <amedee> ogra_: I disagree. Garbage shouldn't be put on the internet in the first place. If people can't have some restraint then they have no place online.
[16:23:13] <pleia2> I haven't really noticed the sounder traffic moving to -users all that much (there is some unity discussion, but I don't see that as horribly off-topic for -users)
[16:23:17] <mdke> s/concerned/convinced
[16:23:23] <ogra_> amedee, i wasnt meaning to praise that function at all :)
[16:23:33] <popey> ogra_: thats fair comment. but I dont believe we should provide garbage bins for people
[16:23:39] <mdke> ogra_: having a "users bin" isn't really a good justification for having a separate list
[16:23:41] <popey> there are plenty of other places people can chat
[16:23:43] <ogra_> popey, totally now
[16:23:46] <ogra_> *not
[16:24:03] <popey> As one friend of mine often says "Goodbye and enjoy the rest of the internet"
[16:24:16] <ogra_> what I#m saying is that we now end up with a lot of offtopic stuff on -users
[16:24:26] <popey> the internet is big, Canonical/Ubuntu isn't obliged to provide a forum for everyone to discuss everything
[16:24:47] <amedee> popey: could you please remind me of the original function?
[16:24:49] <mdke> ogra_: the answer is just to deal with that, rather than shunting it off
[16:24:49] <popey> ogra_: sure, we do, and I really appreciate the amount of work you've done on that list recently
[16:25:15] <popey> amedee: take a look at the archive, look at the first few months of the list
[16:25:17] <ogra_> mdke, i'm not saying its good to have a grabage can list :)
[16:25:30] <ogra_> its just something i noticed ...
[16:25:31] <mdke> ogra_: I may have misunderstood you then
[16:25:34] <amedee> feel free to give the boot to people who go off topic on ubuntu-users, after some fair warning
[16:25:46] <popey> amedee: we have done that as you pointed out
[16:26:01] <popey> I've set two people to moderation in the last week on -users
[16:26:39] <popey> i try to keep the moderation low, and not publicise it too much otherwise you end up with gargantuan threads about moderation
[16:26:48] <ogra_> heh, yeah
[16:26:52] <popey> I do think it's somewhat telling that nobody at all turned up to the last cc meeting
[16:27:00] <NoOp_> NoOp (Gary Lee) requesting permission to comment re: sounder list
[16:27:00] <popey> and you are the only person who has turned up to this one
[16:27:08] <popey> NoOp_: go ahead
[16:27:11] <ogra_> NoOp_, just speak
[16:27:13] <popey> (okay, may that two)
[16:27:23] <ogra_> no formalities here :)
[16:27:33] <amedee> I'm taking a look at
[16:27:37] <amedee> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/2004-August/thread.html
[16:28:18] <popey> amedee: that's it.
[16:29:06] <amedee> popey: I understand. You already have the reputation of being the list-nazi for some people. ;-) I know what it's like. I have moderated a forum for a couple of years.
[16:30:00] * ogra_ thinks popey does an awesome job
[16:30:12] * popey will miss ogra_'s hugs at UDS
[16:30:27] <sladen> awhhh
[16:30:29] * ogra_ will miss you too :'-(
[16:30:31] <amedee> lots of technical topics on sounder in august 2004. Seems like it didn't service any additional purpose back then either.
[16:30:35] <mdke> amedee: the month before ubuntu-users was created, it looks like :) But the Ubuntu community doesn't bear much resemblance now to then, so it is quite difficult to make comparisons. I think we need to assess whether sounder had value for the current community
[16:31:05] <mdke> and our conclusion was that it didn't
[16:32:12] * ogra_ wonders if NoOp_ will say something :)
[16:32:48] <amedee> mdke: don't worry, in the broader perspective I tend to agree with the decision, or at least I understand the motivation.
[16:33:36] <popey> I know I got a lot of flak for this, as if it was entirely my decision (or for some, that it was Canonical's decision) but neither of those are true.
[16:34:03] * mdke nods
[16:34:07] <popey> people have other places to go.
[16:34:27] <popey> there's the new bikeshed google group which has 38 or so people on it, mostly refugees from sounder
[16:34:30] <mdke> it's a shame popey took flak for this, because it was unanimous on the part of the CC afaics
[16:34:34] <popey> bear in mind some interesting numbers...
[16:34:50] <popey> 20-25 people spoke on sounder regularly
[16:34:54] <popey> 400 people subscribed
[16:34:57] <amedee> Well then, I guess I was the only 'regular' user from the mailing lists that made an effort to be heard on irc. I don't want to start about religion but there's this story about a city that's going to be burned to the ground and about a number of righteous men. :)
[16:35:09] <NoOp_> sorry - small irc glitch. For the record I think that sounder was out of control. However I also think that early moderation could have prevented that. Whilst it may have ended up a 'ghost town' the end result would have been better than simply shutting it down.
[16:35:41] <pleia2> thanks for coming and voicing your thoughts, amedee :)
[16:35:54] <popey> take another random mailing list - the ubuntu loco list, has 700 members! the sounder list just flat out wasn't representative of the project, in any way.
[16:36:00] <popey> *ubuntu-uk loco
[16:36:11] <mdke> I have to say that if I had thought that the list served a useful purpose in the community, I would also have looked for another solution. Shutting a valid list down is not a solution. But I don't think the list served or could serve a useful purpose
[16:36:25] <pleia2> mdke: +1
[16:36:30] <amedee> popey: I used to be on the ubuntu-be loco list a couple of years ago :)
[16:36:33] <sladen> sounder was of a time and place... a time and place where everyone involved in Ubuntu was on it
[16:36:34] <mdke> so for me, moderation wasn't a solution
[16:36:49] <mdke> sladen: agreed
[16:37:13] <lmario> anyway, ubuntu-users is now full of OTs...
[16:37:22] <amedee> sounder became sodom, and we all know how that ended :)
[16:37:27] <mdke> it can sometimes be hard to let that sort of history go, but it's also healthy
[16:37:59] <amedee> mdke: pruning of branches to let the flowers grow, to use a gardening analogy
[16:38:09] <ogra_> lmario, as i stated above, -users is missing its grabage can now, but that points out a problem with -users (that it actually needs a garbage can)
[16:38:42] <popey> its not full of OT
[16:38:44] <popey> there are some
[16:38:50] <amedee> ogra_: I think the only good garbage can for a mailing list is moderation
[16:38:54] <popey> and I anticipated this after sounder shutdown
[16:39:01] <ogra_> not full, but more than there were two months ago
[16:39:03] <mdke> I think the -users issue, if there is an issue, can be discussed and dealt with as a separate topic. Perhaps more moderators are needed
[16:39:09] <lmario> @ogra: that is some kind of moderation?
[16:39:12] <popey> perhaps we'll try and calm that down a bit after a while
[16:39:42] * ogra_ just doesnt want to end up with two merged lists
[16:39:47] <Technoviking> thinking we need to build a Mailing list community, like the forums and irc have
[16:39:53] <popey> amedee: you may or may not be surprised to hear there aren't many volunteers to help with mailing list moderation!
[16:39:54] <ogra_> where one exists through the OT tag
[16:40:03] * mdke nods at Technoviking
[16:40:04] <popey> Technoviking: yeah, I have pondered that also
[16:40:04] <pleia2> I agree that this should be picked up in a separate topic and handled as a -users issue
[16:40:21] <mdke> ogra_: agreed, the topic of the users mailing list should also be defined and applied properly
[16:40:26] <popey> a bunch of people who run listadmin regularly and keep on top of the threads
[16:40:35] <pleia2> popey: *nod*
[16:40:47] <mdke> who is doing that now?
[16:40:49] <popey> but it's also worth noting that the -users list has also had a lot of unity traffic
[16:40:54] <popey> mdke: o/
[16:41:03] <ogra_> right
[16:41:21] <popey> maybe a topic for UDS?
[16:41:22] <amedee> popey: I already said that I was a forum moderator for a couple of years. Let me add that I was the _only_ moderator for 5 years on a forum with >6000 registered users and >100 active users/day. I *know* the problem.
[16:41:23] <pleia2> I am listed as one of the list admins, but I think it just landed on my lap because I didn't step back :) I don't actually have the time to help with moderation
[16:41:23] * ogra_ suspects that will go on for a while
[16:41:30] <popey> a blueprint for mailing list admin team?
[16:41:39] <mdke> popey: why not
[16:41:58] <JanC> amedee: you want to be the moderator of sounder? :P
[16:42:48] <amedee> and there we have the person who gave me an Ubuntu coaster back in 2004. Hi JanC!
[16:42:50] <JanC> (I can confirm amedee was the only really active moderator on that forum)
[16:43:16] <amedee> Or was it 2005? Never mind, it was a long time ago.
[16:43:25] <JanC> at some point ;)
[16:43:42] <popey> I have slacked off the moderation of -users over the last month, as a result of sounder closure, and unity release.
[16:43:50] <NoOp_> previously on the users list when subjects became too OT, but still Ubuntu related (Unity for example), one could suggest taking the conversation to sounder. That is no longer possible. Now the options got to forums or usenet.
[16:44:01] <popey> it would be great if there was a team who could jump on the OT and wild topics on -users, for sure
[16:44:15] <amedee> I'll have to watch my words now, because JanC knows me IRL. :)
[16:44:45] <pleia2> popey: blueprint sounds good
[16:44:46] <mdke> NoOp_: but that's just an extension of the dustbin argument; there should be a list to pick up all the stuff that doesn't fall on topic of other lists; that's not a great concept for a list!
[16:44:50] <mdke> (IMO)
[16:44:53] <popey> There are nearly 5000 people on -users compared to ~400 on sounder!
[16:45:14] <mdke> a list should have a topic, not an un-topic
[16:45:16] <pleia2> I think we're getting into a loop now and we should probably wrap up :)
[16:45:33] <popey> ok, I'm happy to create a blueprint for UDS
[16:45:37] <pleia2> great!
[16:45:41] <popey> but someone at UDS will need to drive it
[16:45:48] * popey flutters his eyelashes at
[16:45:50] <popey> Technoviking
[16:46:03] <popey> and/or pleia2 :)
[16:46:20] * Technoviking whistles
[16:46:21] <pleia2> I'm a bit overwhelmed at UDS already, if Technoviking could that'd be great, I'll attend and help
[16:46:26] <Technoviking> I can
[16:46:28] <mdke> good call
[16:46:45] <popey> great
[16:46:46] * ogra_ will attend if schedule allows
[16:47:45] <Technoviking> So, Popey will write out a blueprint and I will try to get it on the schedule and drive it at UDS
[16:47:55] <mdke> on the -users issue.
[16:47:56] <pleia2> sounds good
[16:48:05] <popey> yes
[16:48:13] <Technoviking> If nothing else, I'm sure we can discuss at an community roundtable
[16:48:14] <mdke> As for the sounder issue, if anyone has any comments and wasn't able to attend the meeting, we can follow up by email if necessary
[16:48:15] <popey> well, general mailing list moderation
[16:48:17] <popey> focussed on -users
[16:48:41] <amedee> JanC: no I do not want to be the moderator of sounder. You know what will happen! ;-)
[16:48:42] <ogra_> popey, well, that should be announced at -users (with a link about remote participation at UDS)
[16:48:52] <popey> good point ogra_
[16:49:08] <Technoviking> I will ping -user, when I get a session scheduled
[16:49:44] <mdke> thanks for driving that popey and Technoviking
[16:49:45] <popey> great
[16:49:53] <Technoviking> ok is there anything else people want to discuss with the CC
[16:50:12] <Technoviking> 3...
[16:50:19] <Technoviking> 2...
[16:50:22] <Technoviking> 1...
[16:50:23] <NoOp_> mdke: but on occasion the dustbin does pick up some good bits. anyway, looks as it there isn't anything further re: sounder - thanks for allowing comments.
[16:50:36] <pleia2> thanks for coming, NoOp_
[16:50:40] <ogra_> yeah
[16:50:44] <popey> if anyone has further comments, do please send them to us directly
[16:50:46] <mdke> yes, thanks all
[16:50:50] <popey> firstname.lastname@example.org
[16:50:53] <Technoviking> #endmeeting